Tag Archives: Robin Hobb

Review: FOOL’S QUEST by Robin Hobb

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Oh, FitzChivalry Farseer and my Beloved Fool, how do I love thee, let me count the ways.

*looks at bookshelves*

*counts*

Apparently at least eleven books’ worth.

Wait, don’t run away! This is my favorite fantasy series — and one of my favorite series, period — of all time. Of all time. Yes, it’s hefty, but don’t worry, I’ll help you through it. And if you love richly built fantasy worlds, complex characters, strong friendships, magic, and dragons, I promise you, it’s worth the time commitment.

First, some basic orientation. Robin Hobb’s FOOL’S QUEST is clearly not a standalone, but the second installment in a new trilogy (beginning with FOOL’S ASSASSIN) that follows two other trilogies, starting with ASSASSIN’S APPRENTICE, where we meet main protagonist Fitz as a young child, and ending with FOOL’S FATE, where we leave him as a grown man. Plus there are two other companion series set in the same world — the brilliant Liveship Traders trilogy (starting with SHIP OF MAGIC), and then the Rain Wilds Chronicles (which I have to admit I haven’t finished yet — I’m working on it!). The companion series are not necessary to read and understand the Fitz books, but they very much enhance the experience.

That’s fifteen books thus far set in this world. And counting.

If you’ve never read any of the books set in Robin Hobb’s Six Duchies and its surrounding lands, fifteen books is a pretty daunting number. As this is my favorite fantasy series of all time (I may have mentioned this), I personally think it’s worth the effort to read all of them (Rain Wilds Chronicles, I will conquer you), but if that’s just way too big an undertaking for you, then you *only* (heh) need to read seven books to understand the events in FOOL’S QUEST. They are:

The Assassin trilogy: ASSASSIN’S APPRENTICE, ROYAL ASSASSIN, ASSASSIN’S QUEST.

The Tawny Man trilogy: FOOL’S ERRAND, GOLDEN FOOL, FOOL’S FATE.

And then the first book in the new Fitz and the Fool trilogy: FOOL’S ASSASSIN.

These books all share a protagonist — FitzChivalry Farseer — and proceed chronologically throughout his life, each book building off the events of the last. There’s really no skipping around if you want to read about Fitz — sorry — but at the same time, I cannot overemphasize how much I enjoy reading about Fitz. Like many high fantasy series-starters, the first book in each series takes a little while to really get going, but once it does, hoo boy.

(If you wanted to read the two companion series, they each stand alone, but Liveship Traders falls between the Assassin and Tawny Man trilogies, and Rain Wilds falls between Tawny Man and Fitz and the Fool.)

Try as I might, there’s really no way for me to review the fifteenth book in an ongoing series without spoilers for the preceding books, so if you haven’t read them, proceed with caution. I’ll try my best not to be too spoilery, but even the broad strokes give away some major developments of the other books in the series. So. Continue at your own risk.

With all that out of the way, let’s get to my thoughts on Fitz’s latest adventures in FOOL’S QUEST (Fitz and the Fool #2).

The Plot (from Goodreads):

Acclaimed and bestselling author Robin Hobb continues her Fitz and the Fool trilogy with this second entry, following Fool’s Assassin, ramping up the tension and the intrigue as disaster continues to strike at Fitz’s life and heart.

After nearly killing his oldest friend, the Fool, and finding his daughter stolen away by those who were once targeting the Fool, FitzChivarly Farseer is out for blood. And who better to wreak havoc than a highly trained and deadly former royal assassin? Fitz might have let his skills go fallow over his years of peace, but such things, once learned, are not so easily forgotten. And nothing is more dangerous than a man who has nothing left to lose…

My Thoughts:

I can’t tell you how excited I was when I found out Robin Hobb was writing a new series about Fitz and the Fool. While we left both characters in a pretty satisfying place at the end of FOOL’S FATE, I’d come to love these characters like family. I missed not being able to journey alongside them on their adventures. So although I had no idea what to expect as far as a conflict for a new series — the main conflict in both the Assassin and Tawny Man series is pretty handily wrapped up at the end of FOOL’S FATE — I was eager to return to the world of the Six Duchies.

Like the first books in most of Hobb’s preceding series, the initial installment in the Fitz and the Fool trilogy, FOOL’S ASSASSIN, takes its time ramping up. I very much enjoyed it — by this point in the series, my overwhelming fondness for FitzChivalry Farseer means that I’m totally cool following him through a series of quiet and mundane tasks, whether it’s managing his estate or dealing with his children (mostly because Fitz has gone through so many dark times that I’m beyond pleased that he has an estate, or children) — and this sort of slow grounding process is necessary to re-establish the reader in Fitz’s world and remind us of the events that led here — but as far as action goes, it’s not until the final act of FOOL’S ASSASSIN that we really see things take off.

Not so with FOOL’S QUEST. Again, this is pretty well expected for each of Hobb’s series: Book 1 spends its time meticulously setting up an intricate pattern of dominoes, then Book 2 blazes in and knocks them all down, leaving the reader in a mess of perfectly executed chaos. FOOL’S QUEST was no exception to this. It hits the ground running, picking up right where FOOL’S ASSASSIN leaves off, and pushes the plot forward at a determined pace, never feeling rushed, but never letting up, either. High fantasy tends to run long in pages, but while reading FOOL’S QUEST, I found myself lamenting that there were *only* 500, 400, 300 pages left to go.

You know that feeling when watching the extended edition of The Two Towers, and it ends and you simultaneously realize, “wow, that movie was three and a half hours long,” but also wish it didn’t have to end? That’s the feeling I had reading this book. Though I was aware of its heft, when I turned the last page, I wasn’t anywhere near ready for it to be over.

Unlike FOOL’S ASSASSIN, which focuses almost entirely on Fitz and his life far away from Buckkeep Castle, FOOL’S QUEST returns him to his old stomping grounds, where we finally get to catch up with beloved (and Beloved) characters of the past. The Fool is there, of course (I was surprised at how little The Fool was in the first book, given its name), just as mysterious and tragic as ever, along with Chade, Kettricken, Dutiful, Elliania, Nettle, and a host of minor characters whose inclusion made it feel like a true homecoming not just for Fitz, but for the reader. There are even some cameos from characters from the Liveships and Rain Wilds books, whom I hope we see more of as the story progresses.

Although this series of series has always tied together beautifully, to me it’s always felt kind of like a quilt, with clearly distinct pieces coming together at the edges and making up a whole. The Fitz books overlapped with Liveships, which overlapped with Rain Wilds, but they were all still their own separate entities. But in FOOL’S QUEST, for the first time, it began to feel more like a tapestry, with the threads beginning to weave over and under and through one another. It’s possible this won’t come to fruition, and that this Fitz series, like the other (brilliant) books before it, will end up more or less self-contained. But I kind of doubt it, and look forward to seeing how Hobb continues to tie this massive world and cast together.

As with every one of Hobb’s preceding books, in FOOL’S QUEST you can expect a host of fully realized, complicated characters, lush worldbuilding, achingly gorgeous prose, vivid emotion, catastrophic stakes, and thrilling action. But for me, the relationships between the characters are what shine the brightest. Fitz’s friendship with The Fool is, of course, the Catalyst on which the whole story pivots, and always has been. Watching these two characters who have been through so much together interact and trust and plead and betray and forgive is a truly beautiful, frustrating, heartbreaking, uplifting experience.

Contrasting that is Fitz’s relationships with his daughters, where he is not a Catalyst, but simply a father, with all the expectation and disappointment and responsibility that brings. Watching Fitz try to navigate fatherhood, after watching him grow up and struggle and fail and triumph, is both rewarding and agonizing. I want nothing but the best for Fitz, but both fate and his own shortcomings are constantly getting in his way. I want to take him by the shoulders and shake him and hug him, maybe at the same time, which for my money is one of the hallmarks of a truly excellent protagonist.

I could go on for ages, but suffice it to say, all of Fitz’s other relationships are similarly complex and well-drawn. Each feels like fully realized person, and the way Fitz interacts with each person he encounters is wholly authentic and honest, whether he’s fighting to the death or gently caring for a traumatized stable hand. Though the sweeping plot of FOOL’S QUEST is every bit as intriguing and suspenseful as Fitz’s quest to aid King Verity against the Red Ships Raiders, or traveling to Aslevjal island to slay a dragon, it’s these relationships and interactions that are the true meat of this series.

Ultimately, this isn’t a recommendation for this one book — if you’ve already read the preceding 7-14 books, you probably already have a pretty good idea if you want to read this one — but for this series, and every series about FitzChivalry Farseer. If you’re not sure if fantasy is your thing, or you’re hesitant about picking up the first book in a series that is so sprawling, let this be your assurance that this is a series that only gets better as it continues. It’s worth the time, it’s worth the investment. Fitz and The Fool are two of the greatest characters I’ve ever read, and as long as Robin Hobb sees fit to keep writing books about them, I’ll be the first in line to read them.

Top Ten Tuesday (September 18) – Bookish People I Want to Meet

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Welcome to another Top Ten Tuesday, hosted by the people over at The Broke and the Bookish! After last week’s Super Heavy topic (which, granted, didn’t have to be Super Heavy, but it was for me), I’m glad this week’s is a bit lighter.

On a related note, I realized this week that I’ve been blogging almost six months now! This calls for some sort of celebration, or at least a dessert item of some kind. Preferably of the tiramisu variety.

And in that short/long time (depending on your perspective), I’ve met some truly amazing people. So many, actually, that I had a hard time with this week’s topic, simply because I’ve already met so many of the amazing bookish people who would have been on this list six months ago. They include Myra McEntire, C.J. Redwine, Amy Plum, Sharon Cameron, Kat Zhang, Ruta Sepetys (seriously people, Nashville rocks so hard), and a whole bunch of fabulous Tennessee bloggers. If you ever have a chance to meet any of these ladies (even if you haven’t read their books yet — which, confession time, I haven’t read all of them yet), I’d highly recommend it.

Some of these I stand a decent chance of encountering someday. Others fall solidly in the “one day if all my dreams come true and are sprinkled in fairy dust” category. You can decide for yourself which is which.

Oh, and disclaimer: I haven’t read all of these authors’ books yet either. Some of them are on here because while I’ve heard their books are great, I know they are pretty awesome from following them on Twitter. (Although some of them aren’t on Twitter, and are on here entirely because of their books). And of course, not all of them are authors at all.  This disclaimer is getting confusing. I should stop.

These are numbered so I can keep track of how many I have, but are in no particular order.

Top Ten Bookish People I Want to Meet

1. J.K. Rowling – You know she’s got to be on everyone’s list, because who wouldn’t want to meet the woman who created Harry Potter?

In related news, I dreamed last night that I was Harry, and Voldemort had agreed to have a nice little diplomatic chat with me, but halfway through our chat he figured out the twist ending. Guys, it is never good when the bad guy figures out the twist ending. I was really glad to wake up.

2. Suzanne Collins – In the same vein, I want to meet the woman who created The Hunger Games and singlehandedly brought about this crazy dystopian wave that we’re still surfing. And I would also like to thank her for creating Peeta, who may be my favorite YA male character ever. Or at least one of my top 3.

3. Lauren Oliver – She wrote Before I Fall and the Delirium series, and her writing is just so pretty. I just want to wallow in it.

4. Robin Hobb – No big deal, only the author of my favorite fantasy series of all time. I compare all other fantasy (and books in general, really) to this series, and while some are really, really good, her books stand superior.

A week or so ago, I opened my mailbox to find an autographed copy of the first book in the series, courtesy of Sarah, who had picked one up for me at Dragon*Con. I may have screeched right there at the mailbox.

5. Jessica Khoury – Her debut, Origin, just came out and I haven’t read it yet. I have an ARC (that I won in one of her contests, actually), sitting on my shelves begging to be read, but my life lately has not been conducive to reading. Hopefully I will remedy this soon. But she runs the best, most creative contests ever, PLUS she loves Robin Hobb’s books, and therefore I have decided we must meet someday.

6. Jodi Meadows – Her critique partners are Myra McEntire and C.J. Redwine. Considering how much I adore their books, I figure that loving Jodi’s books is pretty much a guarantee. And although I regret to admit that I’ve had Incarnate sitting unread on my shelf for months now (although sometimes I just have to gaze at the pretty cover), I know when I finally do sit down to read it, I’ll be in for a treat. Plus, I’m rather addicted to Jodi’s blog. And she is the one who introduced me to Lindsey Stirling videos. So I think we’d get along.

7. Veronica Roth – While Divergent was not my favorite book ever (although Insurgent was better), I love Veronica’s blog. I’ve spent so much time browsing her archives. She is responsible for a large percentage of my knowledge of the publishing industry (I’m not sure how vast that knowledge is — probably not very — but what there is, she planted). I would love to hear her speak and pick her brain.

8. Tahereh Mafi – Another author whose books I haven’t read yet (confession: I’m waiting until I can get them with the new cover, because I’m not a fan of the original Shatter Me cover), but her Twitter makes me laugh more than any other author. And anyone who can make me laugh that much is someone I want to meet.

9. Lori at Pure Imagination – She’s the only one of the Tennessee bloggers I regularly communicate with that I haven’t met yet. (Which is funny, because she was actually the first Tennessee blogger I started talking to when I started blogging). Thus far our interaction has consisted entirely of Twitter and blog comments. This needs to be remedied.

10. Sarah at Breaking the Binding – Sometimes you “meet” a person (and I put “meet” in quotes because as of yet, we have not actually met) and you just have to shake your fist at the sky and say “WHY WERE WE NOT RAISED TOGETHER FROM INFANCY?” And such is the case with Sarah. It is sad that we live in two different states, because if we were in the same town, I’m pretty sure great things would happen. Based on the sheer volume of cyber-communication that currently passes between us on a daily basis (a large percentage of which is geeky Tumblr links), I think we’d have no shortage of things to discuss.

Honorable Mentions (since limiting it to 10 is just…no):

Jennifer Nielsen, Rae Carson, Victoria Schwab, James Dashner, Julie Kagawa, Shannon Messenger

Discussion: Multiple POVs: Tool or Crutch?

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Multiple POV in a book = Ensemble cast in a movie

I’ve been reading a lot of books lately where the narrative follows multiple POVs (points of view. Which I guess means the abbreviation should be PsOV, but that looks WEIRD).  Sometimes it’s just two characters, other times it’s four or more. Then I go to other blogs or Goodreads and see what others thought of the book. One of the things I’ve noticed come up in reviews a lot, with feelings running the gamut of emotions, is that we have widely varying preferences on POV.

Some people love the additional insight into the characters that multiple POVs offer. Others think of it as authorial laziness, and wish the author would just stick with one character and develop him or her more.

With me, it really depends on the book. Sometimes I adore multiple POVs. Other times, I agree that it feels like the author just wasn’t trying very hard. Or there’s a third category — the author obviously had a strong case for including someone else’s POV, but their editor probably needed to step up and cut it. Because while the added POV does add something interesting to the story, it doesn’t add enough to justify its presence.

Let’s take a look at some books that fall into each of these categories, and why, in my opinion, they work or don’t work.

When it Works

To me, Robin Hobb’s Liveship Traders trilogy is the gold standard of multiple POVs used to great benefit. This is an adult high fantasy series, and I think one of the things working in its favor is the scope of the story (and the fact that adult high fantasy is allowed to have some length to it). Probably many of you haven’t read this one (although you SHOULD), but just bear with me a moment while I walk through the elements that make multiple POVs work well. I’ll apply them to books you’ve read soon, I promise.

The characters are all very different

This series has seven POVs, and that’s assuming I didn’t miss one. But all of them are very different, following characters that come from varied backgrounds, each with their own unique voice.

Shreever – a sea serpent

Kennit – a pirate captain

Wintrow – a boy priest

Brashen – a sailor

Althea – a daughter of a prominent Trader family

Ronica – the widow of a Trader

Malta – the young, spoiled daughter of a captain

All seven of them would view the same situation in seven completely different ways. But most of the time, they don’t have to, which brings me to my next point:

No single character is capable of telling the whole story

Yes, some of them are paired up in the same location, but none of them has all the information necessary to make the story work. Kennit is incapable of telling the reader what is happening in the town, because he spends the majority of the book on his ship. Brashin can’t tell you what’s happening on Kennit’s ship, because he’s on a different ship. And Ronica can’t tell us a thing about life at sea, because she remains in the town.

Now I’m not saying that characters must be divided geographically for multiple POVs to work. It can most definitely work if the characters are in the same location. But what must always be true is that the story can’t be told by only one character. Not that it would be difficult to tell. It needs to be impossible to tell. As in, if you forced the author to rewrite the book from the perspective of one character only, the story simply wouldn’t work.

Each character has their own, important story

No character’s POV is included unless they have their own unique story that must be shared for us to be able to understand the story as a whole. And as a result, while some characters are featured more prominently than others, every single POV has its own motivations, its own stakes, and its own plot arc.

Examples of When it Works:

When it Doesn’t Work

When only one (or none) of the above is true, it just flat out doesn’t work. Here’s some of the common pitfalls I’ve seen.

Narrators are too similar

I’m not sure if this is a case of author voice being too strong or character voice being too weak. I think normally, it’s the latter. This is especially prevalent in books where every POV is still told in first person, so you don’t even have helpful names and pronouns to let you know who’s speaking. If I can’t figure out whose story I’m reading, I get frustrated and it’s impossible for me to invest in the story.

Or maybe I can figure out who’s talking, but I can’t figure out why they’re talking. If I’m thinking, “Why do I need Steve’s point of view? I already have John’s point of view on the subject, and Steve seems to agree with him,” you’ve lost me.

Narrators don’t bring me new (or necessary) information

Maybe you’re writing a book about a girl searching for her kidnapped boyfriend. And you think, “Oooh, you know what would be neat? The scene where the boyfriend gets abducted!” And you figure, you can’t do that one from the girl’s point of view, so you write it from the boyfriend’s. And maybe you include a scene or two about the boyfriend huddled in the dark, and the kidnapper punches him in the face a few times, but really, most of the story is about the girl’s search and how she ultimately finds and rescues him.

Was the boyfriend’s POV necessary? No, and here’s why.

1) We know he was kidnapped. While the kidnapping scene may be awesome, it doesn’t give us new information, unless the method of his kidnapping was absolutely pivotal to the plot and the girl would have never been able to figure it out on her own. And even if that’s the case, it may still not work (see below).

2) The girl is probably assuming he is scared. And if, when she finds him, his cheek is bruised and his lip is bloody, and he looks haggard, we can pretty well assume the kidnapper roughed him up. It’s not necessary to include the scenes of those things happening, because it is not new information that we would not have had otherwise.

Narrators don’t have their own arc

Even in reason #1 up above, where the method of kidnapping is essential to the plot, if we never hear something relevant from Boyfriend again, his POV still doesn’t work. The author needed to find another way to let us know what the method of kidnapping was, even if it’s really hard. I’m not going to be invested in a character whose perspective I only share for one or two scenes. A narrator needs to tell a story, not just a single event.

Examples of When it Doesn’t Work:

*

When it Almost Works

And this one is tricky. If it almost works, I can still enjoy the book. Heck, I can even enjoy a book sometimes when it flat out doesn’t work (although in that case, I can’t LOVE the book).

When this happens, it’s pretty much always in books featuring three or more POVs. The author has a couple POVs working well, developing characters and arcs alongside each other, bringing us lots of necessary information…and then they slip in another one that’s not necessary. It kind of sneaks in, around all the stuff that is necessary, and it almost fools us into believing that we needed that character’s POV. But we didn’t. And any time we come across that character’s POV, the story starts to feel flat. So basically, the author could have had a solid multiple-POV book, but that one extra narrator kept it from completely working.

I can totally see why this happens. Authors love their characters. They want us readers to have ALL the information, because sometimes it’s painful to not show how fully developed and real these characters are in their heads. And when they are letting several other characters have their voice, and they’re all working well, I’d guess it can be extremely hard to see that this one character just isn’t working. But I would argue that there’s a way (albeit much more difficult for the writer) to develop those characters and give us all the necessary information without crawling inside their heads for a couple chapters.

Examples of When it Almost Works (Disclaimer: I still enjoyed these books):

I know I’ve read more than two books where it almost worked, but I honestly can’t think of what they were at the moment. It’s a pretty rare occurrence — normally the multiple POVs either work or they don’t.

So what do you think? Do you love multiple POVs or hate them? Does it depend on the circumstance? Are they necessary sometimes and superfluous at others? What books can you think of that I didn’t mention here that got it perfectly right (or horribly wrong)? 

*I know a lot of you may disagree with me on Legend, but I maintain that the narrators in that book sound exactly. The. Same.

Throwback Thursday (July 26) – Ship of Magic by Robin Hobb

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Welcome to Throwback Thursday, a weekly meme hosted by The Housework Can Wait and Never Too Fond of Books!

It’s the nature of book blogging to focus mainly on new releases, but there are thousands of great books out there that haven’t seen the “New Releases” shelf in years. We hope to be able to bring attention to some older titles that may not be at the top of the current bestseller list, but still deserve a spot in your To-Be-Read pile.

You don’t have to be a book blogger to participate! You can put up a Throwback Thursday post on your non-bookish blog; or if you don’t have a blog at all, just use the comments to tell us about a book you remember fondly.

Here’s how it works:
1. Pick any book released more than 5 years ago. Adult, YA, Children’s; doesn’t matter. Any great book will do.
2. Write up a short summary of the book (include the title, author, and cover art) and an explanation of why you love it. Make sure to link back to The Housework Can Wait and Never Too Fond of Books in your post.
3. Link up your post at The Housework Can Wait or Never Too Fond of Books.
4. Visit as many blogs as you can, reminisce about books you loved, and discover some “new” books for your TBR list!

Feel free to grab the Throwback Thursday button code from the sidebar to use in your posts.

Thanks for participating, and we look forward to seeing which books you choose to remember!

My Throwback this week is…

Ship of Magic by Robin Hobb

A few weeks ago I featured Assassin’s Apprentice, which introduces us to the Farseer world. However, Ship of Magic, while still set in the same world, kicks off an entirely new trilogy complete with (almost) entirely new characters. Therefore, while I still would recommend you read the Farseer books first, it’s absolutely not necessary to really enjoy this book.

Ship of Magic follows the Vestrit family. Althea Vestrit is the daughter of a Bingtown Trader and rightful heir to her family’s Liveship, Vivacia. However, when her father dies, the ship is passed to her hateful brother-in-law, Kyle, instead of to her.

Kyle forces his son Wintrow to accompany him to sea, in spite of the fact that Wintrow was training to become a priest. Wintrow struggles aboard Vivacia, trying to cling to his beliefs in spite of his father’s constant cruelty.

Meanwhile, Althea enlists the help of her father’s former first mate, Brashen, in a risky endeavor to reclaim the ship. At the same time, the ruthless pirate Kennit seeks a way to seize power and make himself King of the Pirate Isles.

Yes, that is a very complex plot, and I haven’t even begun to touch on all its twists and turns. One thing I love — love — about this series is that it alternates perspective between a ton of characters, and it works. Althea, Wintrow, Brashen, and Kennit are all narrators, and it doesn’t stop there. It’s the best example of alternating perspective I think I’ve ever read, and it helped me become completely and utterly absorbed in the world.

And as for the story, it’s one of the most vivid fantasy books I’ve read. Everything from the descriptions of life on board the ships to the somewhat stifling life lived by families in Bingtown is completely engrossing and fantastic. You really feel like you’re there with the characters, experiencing their (often frustrating and infuriating) lives. Oh, and speaking of infuriating, this book is also a fabulous example of a story where I started out passionately hating certain characters, and by the end of the series, I loved them. And that is no small task.

If you are a fan of fantasy, pirates, adventure, magic, and — oh yeah — dragons, this is a must-read.

This is a blog hop! Link up your Throwback Thursday post below!



Top Ten Tuesday (July 24) – Top Ten Most Vivid Worlds/Settings In Books

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It’s Top Ten Tuesday again, hosted by the fabulous folks over at The Broke and the Bookish! And the topic this week is one of those things that I think helps set “great” books apart from “good” books.

Top Ten Most Vivid Worlds/Settings In Books

World building! That feeling that you’re actually in the setting of the story instead of simply reading about it. Sometimes a book has a really interesting plot that engages me, but I have a hard time picturing the world, making the book simply “good.” Other times, I feel transported to a different time or place, and those are the books that really stand out to me.

So here are my Top 10 books that have the best world building, in alphabetical order:

Assassin’s Apprentice by Robin Hobb

Defiance by C.J. Redwine

Ender’s Game by Orson Scott Card

The Girl of Fire and Thorns by Rae Carson

Harry Potter (entire series) by J.K. Rowling

The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins

The Immortal Rules by Julie Kagawa

The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien

Outlander by Diana Gabaldon

Ship of Magic by Robin Hobb (Yes, this is technically the same world as Assassin’s Apprentice, but the two series focus on totally different aspects of that world, so I think it’s valid to include both)